He gives us both and we give Him thanks.

For me the answer is “yes” we need the church because I do not believe we can follow Christ without doing so in community, nor do I think that I can create a community that serve his purposes that is not the church. He did not leave me another option. In addition he left us instructions that our community is to be marked by the preaching of the gospel, the shared celebration of the sacraments, Biblical church leadership and discipline, love for one-another and missional involvement in the world in community. That is the church or requires the church even if I call it something else. Even if I start over by myself, as soon as I go forward and lead someone to Christ and Baptize them etc…. I’m moving toward some expression of church and if I walk in obedience I will soon find myself with sacraments, and preaching in some form, and with people who manifest many weakness, as do I. Again, just thinking as I write, I don’t see how to follow Christ in all that Scripture teaches without ending up committed to his bride and body.

I probably should say I’m not talking in all of this about whatever cultural expression of the church we may envision, all of which have elements that are not part of the essence of the body of Christ. I’m not talking about buildings, bronze offering plates or printed bulletins etc…. but the thing underneath all of that, the thing Jesus is building and will continue to build until he finishes perfecting her through the washing of water with the word (Mark 16 & Eph. 5).

Chris, I think you should learn a few things about being respectful to people you disagree with. If you communicate things in a particular way, all anyone will hear is a clanging cymbal.

A few thoughts…
1. Your mention of a group that is “abandoning” the church based on a prediction of the second coming of Jesus in response to mine and anthony’s conversation strikes me as riduculous and lacking generosity. Do you actually think that what Anthony and I were discussing has anything to do with that kind of a situation? If you don’t think that our situations are the same or even similar, then say that for the sake of clarity. My hope is that you did not mean the comparison and were just a bit sloppy in communicating your ideas.

2. You challenged anthony to challenge me “to demonstrate his position with scripture.” I am proposing that the vast majority of local churched in America are useless as agents of God’s restorative healing. The burden of proof is not on me to prove anything biblically. The burden of proof is on you to make the church what Jesus told you to. Did Jesus come down on people who were disenfranchised with the corrupt religious establishment of his day? No, but he did rail against that establishment himself. Maybe you should act like your Lord, rail against corrupt religious establishments and stop telling people like me to prove it biblically. The bible is not the problem. The church in American is. I can’t reconcile the Bible with what you and your friends have let the church-at-large become. How about instead of arguing with me, you change churches so that I can begin to reconcile scripture with reality. In the meantime, maybe you should save your rhetoric for the church instead of me…

3. You mention followers of Jesus in the third world. I have a feeling that if the followers of Christ that you speak of who are bleeding for the way of Jesus were faced with the expression of “church” that I have issues with, they would probably throw up all over themselves. If more American churches would actually follow Jesus in the way that these other people do, we might not be having this conversation. They are doing what the American church is not. And your response to my frustration is to essentially imply that I’m a spoiled American. I can just feel the love and respect that you have for me as a fellow human being. You need to step back and notice that the spoiled American church is the reason that we are having this conversation. Not me. I think a conversation between myself and a thirdworld follower of Jesus might surprise you. We might find more to agree about than you and I. So once again, follow the example of Jesus by calling out the religious corruption in the American church instead of telling me I’m spoiled and instead of challenging me to prove it using the Bible.

I want you to know that I don’t “feel the love” from your comments. In truth, I find your general tone and way of responding to be deeply offensive. It is part of the reason that I feel the way I do. You need to understand that I’m not the problem with American churches. I have removed myself from them. So don’t treat me like I’m the problem. Don’t challenge me to prove it biblically…challenge them.

I would end by challenging you to re-read what you initially wrote. Do you think that it communicates love? I don’t think so, but I could be wrong. You had to assume that a friend of Anthony’s knew about his blog and might read the post. In the future, I think you should consider how the things that you “blog” will be read. So far as I know, there is no christian password requirement for Ant’s blog. Maybe you should think about the fact that this is a forum that is open to the whole globe.

To Sum up…Chris, I don’t think that your post has convinced me to go find an existing church to be a part of this Sunday. In fact, it probably pushed me a little further in the other direction. I don’t have any harsh feelings toward you and I hope that you will give me a good reason to join you one day. I consider you a friend even though we disagree.
Peace to You.

PS…Since this is Anthony’s blog, I would be interested to know if he thinks that it is fair, wise, loving, respectful or appropriate (1) to compare me to the “abandonement” group (2) to tell me to “prove it biblically” or (3) to tell me that I’m a “spoiled” American. I just hope that my old buddy Antwon will keep it real…Take us into the “NO SPIN ZONE” my friend!

PPS…I just wanted to clear the air with this post. I don’t intend to respond to further posts unless I see it as completely necessary. I don’t have time to blog half the day away and it seems to me that “institutional” christians in American have even more work to do during the day than I do.